There have been a number of threads in this and other forums about which
approach charts to use, and about how the availability of free downloadable
charts from NACO affects the decision. Some pilots purchase full US or
regional subscriptions, others download and print just the charts they
expect to use on a flight (primary and alternate), others fret that, if they
do that, they will not have charts available for an unplanned airport should
it become necessary to divert. I have two partners in our airplane. We
have been pondering these questions also.

Two of us have been buying the full U.S. set of NACO TPPs each year through
the AirChart system. I more and more find myself always downloading and
printing new charts for every flight and taking along the AirChart TPPs for
backup (and also other info like Departure Procedures), rather than going
through the updates. Of course, I still have to check NOTAMs and update the
charts for that.

We just upgraded our AnyWhereMap system to AnyWhereWx (XM Wx) with a new
iPAQ, and we decided to try something different. The idea is to download
from NACO and print the charts for our primary and alternate airports, and
to have current backup digital charts in the iPAQ for the event of having to
use an unplanned airport. The Sporty's digital subscription is lower cost
than NACO, but I don't know how their software is for accessing the charts.
Last night I loaded Adobe Reader for Pocket PC into the iPAQ, along with a
NACO chart, and as expected the display is small, but it looks usable. With
proper choice of zoom for readability, the amount of the chart that is
visible in one view is pretty good, and doesn't require too much panning.
It certainly is not like looking at the chart through a soda straw as I
thought it might be. So now I think we will take the next step and try one
cycle of the Sporty's charts.

If this works out, it will cost considerably less than two sets of TPPs.
Actually it is less than one set of TPPs, $120 for a year's subscription, or
$9.95 per 28-day cycle. It looks like it includes full TPP info.

The full set takes 3GB of storage, but the software allows downloading
selected states. With three 1GB SD cards for the iPAQ (about $50-60 each on
sale), it might work out OK. Actually, a 1GB SD and a 1GB CF will fit in
the iPAQ simultaneously, so about 2/3 of the country can be accessible at
once. There is still about 80MB of nonvolatile storage available in the
iPAQ 4700 for programs, databases, and backup.

The downside is that the storage cards will have to be reloaded every 28
days.

Control Vision also offers their product Pocket Plates, will display
aircraft position on the chart. These charts have to be individually
georeferenced by tapping on two navaids, as I understand it, plus they are
more expensive. We will first try the Sporty's charts.

I'll report back on how this seems to work. If anyone has already tried it,
comments are welcome.

Stan

In article >,
Stan Prevost > wrote:
>to have current backup digital charts in the iPAQ for the event of having to
>use an unplanned airport. The Sporty's digital subscription is lower cost
>than NACO, but I don't know how their software is for accessing the charts.

I think that at the root of all the distributions is a collection of PDFs.
When I was considering something similar I converted a few to images at a
resolution suitable for zooming on a PDA and I think you could fit the
whole shebang on a 1G card.

I absolutely wouldn't want to try it with a stock PDF reader, though. I
want an app that's going to know about the various regions of the plate
and be able to zoom to them quickly (with a single hardware button press,
for example).

Plus a custom app could use a textual database of things like elevations
and frequencies so that they could be presented in a "native" display
rather than as part of the rendering of the plate.

>Control Vision also offers their product Pocket Plates, will display

In forums where I've seen Pocket Plates discussed people fell into two
categories: They had seen it briefly (in a review, on the web) and thought
it looked neat. Then there were users, who seemed to uniformly dislike
the product and some who had grudges against the whole company. Scared me
off, anyway.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:9Z0td.213977$R05.19991@attbi_s53...
>
> I think that at the root of all the distributions is a collection of PDFs.
> When I was considering something similar I converted a few to images at a
> resolution suitable for zooming on a PDA and I think you could fit the
> whole shebang on a 1G card.
>

I don't know how to resize them, especially en masse.

> I absolutely wouldn't want to try it with a stock PDF reader, though. I
> want an app that's going to know about the various regions of the plate
> and be able to zoom to them quickly (with a single hardware button press,
> for example).
>
> Plus a custom app could use a textual database of things like elevations
> and frequencies so that they could be presented in a "native" display
> rather than as part of the rendering of the plate.
>

Those sure would be really nice features, but I don't know where to get them
and I'm surely not going to generate such an app myself.

As for the stock reader, the one I tried seemed to give a good enough
result, sitting at my desk. I have used the PDA-based system in flight
quite a bit and am familiar with usability issues in turbulence and under
workload, night and day. How this particular usage will turn out remains to
be seen. I have a trip to Florida this weekend and will try it then as I
approach my destination airport while flying through Tampa Class B.

I expect to use the backup charts very infrequently. While infrequent usage
doesn't allow the digital charts to not be fully usable, it does mean that I
can tolerate a less convenient usage as long as it doesn't cause an
intolerable increase in workload. Fortunately, the PDA can be dedicated to
the chart when it is needed for that, as I don't use the PDA for navigation
on approaches anyway.

> In forums where I've seen Pocket Plates discussed people fell into two
> categories: They had seen it briefly (in a review, on the web) and
> thought
> it looked neat. Then there were users, who seemed to uniformly dislike
> the product and some who had grudges against the whole company. Scared me
> off, anyway.

My observations are consistent with yours.

Thanks,
Stan

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:58:04 -0600, "Stan Prevost" >
wrote:

Stan,

A few thoughts:

1. I'd worry about usability. I think the charts look OK on a PDF -- when
at home. But the situation I'd be using them in the air is that weather or
some emergency has put me in a position where I have to divert to some
probably unfamiliar airport. It would add to my workload to not have a
realy easy to see and interpret cockpit chart presentation, at a time when
the workload has already gone up.

I do carry backup electronic charts -- but I have them on a tablet PC,
where I can see the entire chart clearly, and don't have to scroll around.

2. Check out SeattleAviation's SmartPlates program as an alternative to
Sporty's DVD's. You can download all the NACO US charts, and then do the
cycle updates also over the Internet. The cost of the program is $100 and
then there's no subscription fees. Also, if you are away from home when
the updates come out, you can download them from wherever you happen to be
located.


--ron

Thanks, Ron.

As for the usability issues, I am going to test that on a trip this weekend.
Last night, I simulated use of one at my desk. I called up the chart, did
my enroute approach briefing by an orderly scrolling through the chart, made
notes on my (simulated) kneeboard for minima, missed approach, and
frequencies that I couldn't immediately put in the radios, then panned the
chart so I could see the plan view and profile view, where it would stay
during the approach. Readability for that seemed to be adequate. This is
not how I would want to do it routinely, but for infrequent backup use, it
seemed fully usable at my desk. In-flight evaluation remains. But I have
used the iPAQ in flight for about three years with the AnyWhereMap product,
and am quite familiar with its usability issues.

The Seattle Avionics products look very nice. I see they have a Pocket PC
version of their SmartPlates as an additional purchase. I don't understand
what they are talking about when they say they have preprocessed the files
for 5X download speed. I compared file sizes for their example chart vs
NACO, it was 388.4K vs 388.8K. Looks like they trimmed some border off is
all.

I would pay for DVD updates rather than very large downloads. Also, I don't
like having to generate backups for individual trips, I would rather have
the whole thing available, or at least a large area. For an alternate
airport when conditions are really poor, I often choose one that is more
than 100 nm away, a Class B or C, where I can find good approaches with good
approach lighting and food, transportation, and lodging, and hopefully out
of the weather system that is causing the problem at my primary destination.
Generating a per-trip backup pack for that size corridor about my route
would be a lot of downloading.

Stan

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 10:58:04 -0600, "Stan Prevost" >
> wrote:
>
> Stan,
>
> A few thoughts:
>
> 1. I'd worry about usability. I think the charts look OK on a PDF -- when
> at home. But the situation I'd be using them in the air is that weather
> or
> some emergency has put me in a position where I have to divert to some
> probably unfamiliar airport. It would add to my workload to not have a
> realy easy to see and interpret cockpit chart presentation, at a time when
> the workload has already gone up.
>
> I do carry backup electronic charts -- but I have them on a tablet PC,
> where I can see the entire chart clearly, and don't have to scroll around.
>
> 2. Check out SeattleAviation's SmartPlates program as an alternative to
> Sporty's DVD's. You can download all the NACO US charts, and then do the
> cycle updates also over the Internet. The cost of the program is $100 and
> then there's no subscription fees. Also, if you are away from home when
> the updates come out, you can download them from wherever you happen to be
> located.
>
>
> --ron

In article >,
Stan Prevost > wrote:
>
>I don't know how to resize them, especially en masse.

I'm not sure how proficient you are at scripting, but GhostScript can
render PDFs as images. What I was trying to work out was just how high
the resolution of a PDA or Slate computer would have to be in order to
read a plate all at once. Somewhere between 480x640 and 600x800 (in a
portrait orientation) is enough that I figured you could just store pre-
rendered images and have no zooming at all. I didn't experiment with
ClearType-like technology, which would probably help quite a bit.

However, the 240x320 PDA resolution definitely requires panning and/or
zooming. If you like the PDF reader you have for your PDA it might be
the best bet. There's a decent chance these days that it does
antialiasing and supports ClearType which improves the legibility a lot.

>Those sure would be really nice features, but I don't know where to get them
>and I'm surely not going to generate such an app myself.

I've been considering writing one ever since they started shipping plates
on DVDs. The only PDA I have runs Linux, though, so the target audience
would be pretty small compared to a PocketPC/WinCE app.

Anyone have an old PDA they want to donate to the cause? :)

>I expect to use the backup charts very infrequently.

Which reminds me -- the other feature that would be great for the PDA is
the ability to print plates from the archive. That's an area where the
original PDF would have a big advantage. In a pinch you could probably
fax it to the front desk of your hotel or something like that.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

"Stan Prevost" wrote:
> We just upgraded our AnyWhereMap system to AnyWhereWx (XM Wx) with a
> new iPAQ,

How do you like that setup, Stan?

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stan Prevost" wrote:
>> We just upgraded our AnyWhereMap system to AnyWhereWx (XM Wx) with a new
>> iPAQ,
>
> How do you like that setup, Stan?
>

I don't know yet, Dan. I'll try to give a PIREP when I get back from the
trip. There are several choices in configuring the equipment. The iPAQ PDA
has Bluetooth, XM satellite receiver has Bluetooth, and they have a
Bluetooth GPS. You get to choose either XM or GPS to have the Bluetooth
connection to the PDA. The other one gets a cable. Since we already had
the GPS with a cable, we went with the BT XM rx. We experimented some, and
wound up just dropping the XM rx in the pouch behind the pilot's seat.
Actually, now it behind the copilot's seat, both work well.

The new PDA is nice but I have all of about ten minutes using the weather.
Others have reported it as being valuable.

Stan

In article >,
Stan Prevost > wrote:
>You get to choose either XM or GPS to have the Bluetooth
>connection to the PDA. The other one gets a cable.

Why? You can have up to 8 devices (1 master, 7 slaves) in a bluetooth
network. And there's more than enough bandwidth for a couple of serial
connections.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

"Ben Jackson" > wrote in message
news:h0btd.201375$HA.5047@attbi_s01...
> In article >,
> Stan Prevost > wrote:
>>You get to choose either XM or GPS to have the Bluetooth
>>connection to the PDA. The other one gets a cable.
>
> Why? You can have up to 8 devices (1 master, 7 slaves) in a bluetooth
> network. And there's more than enough bandwidth for a couple of serial
> connections.
>

I don't know why, and I may have that wrong. That's how I understood they
told us it had to be, but I didn't pursue it because we wanted to use our
existing GPS. And I didn't know any better, not being knowledgeable about
BT networks.

Stan

On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 12:48:15 -0600, "Stan Prevost" >
wrote:

>I would pay for DVD updates rather than very large downloads. Also, I don't
>like having to generate backups for individual trips, I would rather have
>the whole thing available, or at least a large area. For an alternate
>airport when conditions are really poor, I often choose one that is more
>than 100 nm away, a Class B or C, where I can find good approaches with good
>approach lighting and food, transportation, and lodging, and hopefully out
>of the weather system that is causing the problem at my primary destination.
>Generating a per-trip backup pack for that size corridor about my route
>would be a lot of downloading.

Stan,

The downloads are free once you have the software.

And, when the updates come along, all that gets downloaded are the charts
that have changed.

I have the entire US on my tablet, and with broadband it just takes a few
minutes to do the updates -- not any longer than putting my JeppView CD
onto my computer.

So there's no problem with calling up a distant alternate "on the fly".


--ron

I recently upgraded to AnywhereXM and have used it extensively over the past
couple of months. In short I can't imagine how I managed to fly around in
IMC for so long without it. Having the ability to see those nexrad images
displayed over my route of flight has enabled me to make some real tactical
decisions about my flight and routings that were all but impossible to make
before. Being given a change in routing and knowing that the new routing was
going to put you into an area of weather and negotiating a different routing
as a result has been wonderful. Overall the system has been reliable and
generally the weather is where it is depicted. There is a delay in the
images but that is not usually an issue in my spamcan. The metar and taf
data can be over an hour old and the visual display of clouds and visibility
can give an inaccurate picture of the weather ahead. All in all it's been a
great investment, right up there with my autopilot. I won't leave home
without it.

--
Rich Badaracco
Director Angel Flight North Carolina
N1943T

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stan Prevost" wrote:
> > We just upgraded our AnyWhereMap system to AnyWhereWx (XM Wx) with a
> > new iPAQ,
>
> How do you like that setup, Stan?
>
>

"Stan Prevost" wrote:
> >> We just upgraded our AnyWhereMap system to AnyWhereWx (XM Wx) with a
new
> >> iPAQ,
> >
> > How do you like that setup, Stan?
> >
>
> I don't know yet, Dan. I'll try to give a PIREP when I get back from the
> trip.

Please do!

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 6 Dec 2004 12:48:15 -0600, "Stan Prevost" >
> wrote:
>
>>I would pay for DVD updates rather than very large downloads. Also, I
>>don't
>>like having to generate backups for individual trips, I would rather have
>>the whole thing available, or at least a large area. For an alternate
>>airport when conditions are really poor, I often choose one that is more
>>than 100 nm away, a Class B or C, where I can find good approaches with
>>good
>>approach lighting and food, transportation, and lodging, and hopefully out
>>of the weather system that is causing the problem at my primary
>>destination.
>>Generating a per-trip backup pack for that size corridor about my route
>>would be a lot of downloading.
>
> Stan,
>
> The downloads are free once you have the software.
>
> And, when the updates come along, all that gets downloaded are the charts
> that have changed.
>

:-) I didn't mean that I would rather pay for DVD updates than to pay for
very large downloads, I meant that I would buy DVD updates rather than
perform large free downloads. :-)

I missed on their website that the update download was selective to changes.
Nice feature. I may have more questions on this product later. For now, I
am trying one cycle of the Sporty's product, as it only costs $10 and I am
still evaluating the usability of the PDA for occasional use with approach
charts.

Ron, having used the Seattle Avionics product, what do you make of their
claim of 5X download speed due to some kind of magic preprocessing of the
charts? As I said earlier, the one they put up as an example on their
website is essentially the same size as the NACO original.

"Rich Badaracco" wrote:
> I recently upgraded to AnywhereXM and have used it extensively over the
past
> couple of months. In short I can't imagine how I managed to fly around in
> IMC for so long without it.

You're preaching to the choir, Rich. I've had XM WxWorx for over a year and
I love it. I've not run across anyone who has it who is less than thrilled
with the performance of it.

I see you're with Angel Flight. Since I've had XM WxWorx I've definitely
taken more AF missions than I would have without it. I highly recommend it
to all AF pilots.

My question had more to do with what hardware Stan's running his on. I'm
using a Sony notebook pc, which has a superb display but is awkward to use in
the airplane. The PDA's I've seen look too small and have resolution too
poor to tempt me. What are you using?

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM
Angel Flight SE

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 09:32:47 -0600, "Dan Luke" > wrote:

>My question had more to do with what hardware Stan's running his on. I'm
>using a Sony notebook pc, which has a superb display but is awkward to use in
>the airplane. The PDA's I've seen look too small and have resolution too
>poor to tempt me. What are you using


I assume you are talking weather functions here.

I have used AnywhereMap on an Ipaq 5450 and the graphics/resolution is
great. for basic navigation.

Especially with the latest version that allows the user to set up
different views. You can define 5 different views that have unique
characteristics, so that a view you might use for pilotage is
completely different from one you might use for instrument approaches,
for example.

On Tue, 7 Dec 2004 08:50:07 -0600, "Stan Prevost" >
wrote:

>Ron, having used the Seattle Avionics product, what do you make of their
>claim of 5X download speed due to some kind of magic preprocessing of the
>charts? As I said earlier, the one they put up as an example on their
>website is essentially the same size as the NACO original.

Stan,

I have not compared the actual download so far as the file size or speed
during download is concerned. I opt to download all of my plates from the
FAA web site as I believe I see higher resolution. This may not be so
important in the flat areas, but seemed to be more noticeable in
mountainous areas (where I would need the increased resolution more).

So I put up with a long download time initially, but now I only download
the updates.

Could it be that the file size similarity on your computer is due to the
file being expanded once it is on your system?


--ron

"Ron Rosenfeld" > wrote in message
...
>
> Could it be that the file size similarity on your computer is due to the
> file being expanded once it is on your system?
>

I dunno. They were both .pdf files, not processed with any file
compression/decompression software, just viewed in IE. Maybe I will email
them about it.

Stan

In article >,
Stan Prevost > wrote:
> I dunno. They were both .pdf files, not processed with any file
>compression/decompression software, just viewed in IE. Maybe I will email
>them about it.

PDF is already a compressed format (basically compressed PostScript with
some extensions). It doesn't compress very much. I also took one and
ran it through distiller (which is a PostScript program that simplifies
PostScript) and converted back to PDF (to get the compression) and it
didn't get much smaller.

Part of the problem is that the plates have had all the text exploded into
paths. That means that instead of `(ATIS 118.325) show' in PostScript you
get dozens of lines of coordinates and to render the font that was used for
the plate. It makes a lot of sense for a single plate (makes it much more
portable) but if you have 1000 plates it'd be far more efficient to have
one copy of the font.

On the other hand, laptop and PDA sized images rendered from the PDFs are
significantly smaller.

--
Ben Jackson
>
http://www.ben.com/

"Dan Luke" > wrote in
:

> My question had more to do with what hardware Stan's running his on.
> I'm using a Sony notebook pc, which has a superb display but is
> awkward to use in the airplane. The PDA's I've seen look too small
> and have resolution too poor to tempt me. What are you using?
>
The latest Palms, specifically the T3 and T5, with 320x480 rotatable
screens, have excellent resolution, better than PPCs.

--
Regards,

Stan

I'm running it on an HP2215 with everything possible loaded on a storage
card. The application has been stable and seems to perform well. The screen
on the 2215 is a little bit on the small side but it's adequate. I upgraded
to the 2215 at the same time I ordered the WX from a 3650 which had a larger
screen and better readability in sunlight.

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> My question had more to do with what hardware Stan's running his on. I'm
> using a Sony notebook pc, which has a superb display but is awkward to use
in
> the airplane. The PDA's I've seen look too small and have resolution too
> poor to tempt me. What are you using?
>
> --
> Dan
> C-172RG at BFM
> Angel Flight SE
>
>

This is a communication with Seattle Avionics re their SmartPlates product.
A question was raised in this thread about their 5X download claims vs the
file size of the chart available on their website.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Stan,

Good question!

I checked, and the plate on our Website is directly from the FAA. With
SmartPlates, you have your choice of downloading the FAA plates directly or
our processed plates.

I can see where the source of that example on our Website isn't clear.
Originally, we had two paragraphs there, with the first describing in more
detail how the new FAA (actually now called "NACO", National Aeronautical
Charting Office)plates have been greatly improved over the last two years.
They used to have a bad reputation, but with the addition of colored
terrain, missed approach graphics, etc. they are now at least the equivalent
of Jepps.

For you to compare, attached is the same plate in our processed format. Not
as crisp, but a lot smaller. Ours range from 10K to 100k in size.

SmartPlates is a new product, and we are still trying different approaches
to compression. Using some new software we are working on, we think we will
be able to keep the same size we have now or smaller but with a crispness
near to the original NACOs.

Hope that helps. We want to earn you as a customer!

Best Regards,


Robert Hamilton

425-455-2209





-----Original Message-----

From: Stanley Prevost ]

Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 3:57 PM

To:

Subject: SmartPlates

Hello -

I am interested in your SmartPlates product, but I have a question. You say
that the plates are "preprocessed for optimal download". Looking at the
example plate you have on your website, it is essentially the same size as
the plates straight from NACO, only about 400 bytes different.

How will that download 5X faster?

Stan Prevost

Huntsville, AL

I got one cycle of the Sporty's approach charts and software ($10, very
quick delivery). It is a nice product for the desktop or laptop, but I
can't find any way to make it work on the iPAQ. Without the software to
access the database, the chart pdf files are useless because their names are
so cryptic.

So I guess now the choice is buying the Seattle Avionics software.

Stan

I'm not familiar with the iPaq, but if it has a web browser that will
understand javascript, you can still use the sportys dvd. Program Files
> Sportys Chart Viewer > TPPCDVersion >ByState.html is where it opens.
They are just web pages, pdfs adn some xml files that work with
javascript in the pages.

Stan Prevost wrote:
> I got one cycle of the Sporty's approach charts and software ($10, very
> quick delivery). It is a nice product for the desktop or laptop, but I
> can't find any way to make it work on the iPAQ. Without the software to
> access the database, the chart pdf files are useless because their names are
> so cryptic.
>
> So I guess now the choice is buying the Seattle Avionics software.
>
> Stan
>
>
>

Maybe it doesn't understand javascript. I can get ByState.html to run, but
I don't get the States listbox. If I click on the map, it exits.


"Matt Young" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> I'm not familiar with the iPaq, but if it has a web browser that will
> understand javascript, you can still use the sportys dvd. Program Files
> > Sportys Chart Viewer > TPPCDVersion >ByState.html is where it opens.
> They are just web pages, pdfs adn some xml files that work with
> javascript in the pages.
>
> Stan Prevost wrote:
>> I got one cycle of the Sporty's approach charts and software ($10, very
>> quick delivery). It is a nice product for the desktop or laptop, but I
>> can't find any way to make it work on the iPAQ. Without the software to
>> access the database, the chart pdf files are useless because their names
>> are so cryptic.
>>
>> So I guess now the choice is buying the Seattle Avionics software.
>>
>> Stan
>>
>>

In a previous article, Matt Young > said:
>I'm not familiar with the iPaq, but if it has a web browser that will
>understand javascript, you can still use the sportys dvd. Program Files
> > Sportys Chart Viewer > TPPCDVersion >ByState.html is where it opens.
> They are just web pages, pdfs adn some xml files that work with
>javascript in the pages.

I've tried this with a browser in Linux and after you click the state, you
never get the list of airports and cities. I always assumed this was
because they were relying on some back-end processor, but maybe they're
just using non-standard Javascript that doesn't work on anything other
than Internet Explorer and/or Windows?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I am not a vegetarian because I love animals; I am a vegetarian
because I hate plants. -- A. Whitney Brown

www.myairplane.com sells approach plates for use with a PocketPc.
Decent prices as well.

Works fine in FireFox

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, Matt Young > said:
>
>>I'm not familiar with the iPaq, but if it has a web browser that will
>>understand javascript, you can still use the sportys dvd. Program Files
>>
>>>Sportys Chart Viewer > TPPCDVersion >ByState.html is where it opens.
>>
>> They are just web pages, pdfs adn some xml files that work with
>>javascript in the pages.
>
>
> I've tried this with a browser in Linux and after you click the state, you
> never get the list of airports and cities. I always assumed this was
> because they were relying on some back-end processor, but maybe they're
> just using non-standard Javascript that doesn't work on anything other
> than Internet Explorer and/or Windows?
>
>

"Matt Young" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Works fine in FireFox
>

Works fine in IE6 under WinXP, but not IE under WinCE.

In a previous article, Matt Young > said:
>Works fine in FireFox

Not for me. I've tried FireFox on both Linux and Mac OS.

Ok, one thing: I've got the very first Sporty's DVD. Maybe the newer ones
work better?

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I haven't had any mail from my mother since her ISP ended up in the RBL.
I deny that I nominated them...
-- Peter Corlett